1. Who says Pope Francis is “not a traditionalist?”
2. The great thing about saying “anyone with eyes can see that” is that it means you don’t have to prove it. So, it’s a bit of a cowards way out. Prove that he’s not a traditionalist.
3. “Cling to the faith and the traditional Latin mass?” Is that a way of trying to equivocate the two? Of saying they are of equal importance? If so, then are you not in error, comparing something given by God, the faith, to something created by man, the extraordinary form of the mass?
4. I think you are the modernist here. Rather than following the bishop of Rome, you are following a 40~ year old gnostic cult of self-absorbed promethean neo-pelagianists. What could be more of a modernist way of thinking?
5. The way the religion has always been practiced is obedience to the pope, and the saints that are sanctified fought for Rome, not for Switzerland.
6. Before you accuse a Pope of anything, provide evidence.
1. Certainly. You can have evidence. Firstly, according to a Czech Archbishop, he thinks the Traditional Latin Mass is nothing more than a fashion and we’re addicted and need help.
Or another source:
That’s not two sources. The blog got the story from Rorate-Caeli. So, it’s not independently verifying the information, just repeating it. Rorate Caeli claims the Archbishop claims the statement was made by Francis during an audience with the Czech bishops. Let’s assume that the source accurately represents the bishop and the bishop is accurately representing the Pope. (Though, we can always be skeptical.)
Now, the article renders the bishop’s statement in English, noting that it was translated from the Czech, even providing the source, the Czech section of Vatican Radio. That source used the word “móda,” which means a “current (constantly changing) trend,” if wiktionary is to believed. This approximates the use of the English word “fashion,” so it seems a good fit. But, let’s ask, was that the word the Pope used? Probably not, since the Pope does not speak Czech. He has some knowledge of several languages, but Czech is not one of them. So, what language was this meeting in?
We can assume it’s going to be in one of the languages the Pope is most familiar in. Those would be Spanish, English, and Italian. I think of these, it is reasonable to assume that Italian would be the chosen language. Why would the Pope use Spanish or English to speak to Czechs? And Italian is the working language of the Vatican. This hunch is strengthened by the fact that Rorate Caeli cited a Vatican document about the meeting, which has the Pope’s opening statement, which is in Italian.
So, if the Pope was speaking Italian, is it possible to “reverse translate” the word “móda,” to know what the Pope actually said? Well, anything would be a shot in the dark, but I’m going to guess “moda,” which is etymologically related and similar in just about every way, except, in usage. Moda can mean fashion, but it can also mean: manner, custom, and mode (which makes more sense than fashion, since mode is also etymologically related and similar spelling). Thus, the Pope wasn’t necessarily using the term disparagingly, but merely pointing out that it is one mode or form of the mass. What he does disparage is the attitude of being more concerned with the form than the mass itself. Then, it becomes an addiction, as Pope Francis was claimed to have called it, and is rightly condemned.
Here we have statements from Evangelii Gaudium:
“A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others. These are manifestations of an anthropocentric immanentism. It is impossible to think that a genuine evangelizing thrust could emerge from these adulterated forms of Christianity.” (§ 94)
Why don’t you quote the part which precedes it?"This worldliness can be fuelled in two deeply interrelated ways. One is the attraction of gnosticism, a purely subjective faith whose only interest is a certain experience or a set of ideas and bits of information which are meant to console and enlighten, but which ultimately keep one imprisoned in his or her own thoughts and feelings. The other is the self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past." (§ 94)
He condemned modernism in the very paragraph you quoted! But what he noted, is that modernism manifests itself not just in a dictatorship of relativism but in “those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past.” That too, is modernism, or as Pope Francis calls it, “spiritual worldliness.”
“In some people we see an ostentatious preoccupation for … doctrine and for the Church’s prestige, but without any concern that the Gospel have a real impact on God’s faithful people and the concrete needs of the present time. In this way, the life of the Church turns into a museum piece or something which is the property of a select few.” (§ 95)
And an ostentatious preoccupation about dogma without caring about whether the preoccupation serves the faithful is worthy of being condemned as Pope Francis, and Christ did. (Mark 2:27) Pope Francis did not condemn doctrine, just making doctrine into an idol.
2. The Traditional Latin Mass displays the Catholic Faith in all it’s glory.
No. The Catholic faith is displayed in all it’s glory when we love God with all our hearts, minds, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves. The TLM is useful only insofar it allows us to do it, and when so many of its adherents take potshots at the Pope (not to mention their brothers and sisters who attend the ordinary form) every chance they get, I lose faith in the TLM’s ability to do so.
Consider this article:
3. I am the Modernist? How so?
A Catholic obeys the Pope, a modernist demands the Pope obeys him.
I never said I don’t follow the Vicar of Christ. Of course I do, but not when he’s in error.
Who decides when the Pope, the vicar of Christ, to whom Christ entrusted the authority to bind and loose uniquely, is in error? You? How convenient that the Pope is in error when he happens to disagree with you.
When he’s in error, we have a duty to resist him.
That is the major clause, you are still missing the minor clause necessary to support the conclusion that “we must resist him.” You haven’t yet shown that he is in error.
Modernism is what has ravaged the Church for 40+ years. I am just a nobody, trying to practice the True Faith as it has always been known and not the “new ecumenical religion” of today.
Do you know what ecumenicism is?
"Ecumenism mainly refers to initiatives aimed at greater Christian unity or cooperation. These initiatives are often referred to as interdenominational. It is used predominantly by and with reference to Christian denominations and Christian Churches separated by doctrine, history, and practice. Within this particular context, the term ecumenism refers to the idea of a Christian unity in the literal meaning: that there should be a single Church. Ecumenism is separate and distinct from Nondenominational Christianity…
Ecumenism is the movement within Christianity that aims at “the recovery in thought, in action, and in organization, of the true unity between the Church’s mission to the world (its apostolate) and the Church’s obligation to be one”. Thus, ecumenism is the promotion of unity or cooperation between distinct religious groups or denominations of Christianity.
Ecumenism is distinguished from and should not be misused to mean interfaith pluralism. The interfaith movement strives for greater mutual respect, toleration, and co-operation among the world religions. Interfaith dialogue between representatives of diverse faiths, does not necessarily intend reconciling their adherents into full, organic unity with one another but simply to promote better relations.”
Do you believe that all Christians should be united under the Bishop of Rome? Congratulations, you’re an ecumenicist. We have t-shirts and novelty hats.
4. And I am and always will fight for Rome, for the True Faith because it is the truth. Obedience to the Pope is not all our Religion entails. Have you forgotten obedience to the Faith also?
Obedience to the faith means obedience to the one who was tasked by God to protect and promote it, His Pope.
Yes, I know these are confusing times.
Pope Benedict did indeed do a lot for Catholic Tradition. He’s one of the reasons why I’m a fervent traditionalist today. Pope Francis is not a traditionalist. Anyone with eyes to see can see that. To be Catholic is to be traditional, plain and simple. That is how it always was. It’s the Pope’s duty to pass that on. Pope Francis seems to want to turn the Church into a sentimental protestant church.
All I can say is we must pray. These time we are living in were foretold by Our Lady and the Saints. This is the final battle between the children of the Church and the children of the devil. It is horrible to see the Church being attacked and undergoing Her Passion, but She WILL be resurrected one day and return to Her former glory. This time of confusion will pass. We are being tested. If you want to know what to do, cling to the Faith of 2,000 years and to the Traditional Latin Mass. Don’t compromise with Modernism and the errors in the Church today. Practice our Religion as it’s always been practiced. You cannot go wrong there because that is the Religion that sanctified Saints for generations. We need to be those Saints of our day.
I hope I’ve been of help. Come off anon and I’d love to chat sometime.
God bless, anon!
5. Evidence is just a click away. I suggest you go back a year and follow things carefully.
God bless you too.